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Any Practicing Chaos Magicians Out There?
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Been reading about magical systems for quite a few years (everything from Crowley to chaos to voodoo, etc) and feel like I'm at the point in my life where I'm going to start actually practicing. Are there any other practicing/potential magicians on the forum? What are some of the systems you enjoy working in? Would anyone be interested in starting an online "Family Magical Fraternity" of some sort? Love to hear from ya'll!Tuning in and dropping out, dancing Buddhas twist and shout!
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Magic works on those withing sensory range of the ritual @Causarius. What you want to do must be determined before the how to do it.
I mean, no, what are you talking about chaos magjickx?
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Ive been meaning to start trying some of this stuff, not sure were or how to startこたえは いつも 私のむねに。
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General nonsense about magic:
Magic is the science of the subjective. Just as experimental empiricism is the science of the objective, the magician is trying to map the territory and discover the rules of the subjective world.
I don't believe in shooting energy beams at people across continents, through prayer or spell. If you're not there I don't think a ritual can work on you. Most rituals center around creating an impressive and memorable scenario, then implanting information and/or instruction to those involved in the scenario. All this is vague of course because the energetic tone of the ritual , the person(s) involved, and the intention of the magician all change the nuts-and-bolts of the ritual drastically.
There's more than one way to sacrifice a cat! -
I have been researching and starting to practice here and there.
So far with my limited experience I would recommend to anyone wanting to investigate the occult and magic first work on meditation/relaxation and look into Book 4 by Aleister Crowley, Condensed Chaos by Phil Hine, and The Chicken Qabalah by Lon Milo DuQuette. The last book there has really given me some veil-rending experiences recently. I very strongly recommend it. In any magical field I think that understanding of Qabalah is invaluable.
Update: Not necessarily Chaos Magic oriented but a good podcast on starting a daily Regimen
Post edited by Capricus at 2012-07-23 01:32:09 -
Brief rundown on chaos magic:
When people practice more traditional forms of magic (hermeticism, folk magic, divination, etc) they are usually following a particular paradigm/set of rules that have been constructed for that particular tradition. What magic words to use, what pieces of ritual paraphernalia you should have, which gods to invoke. That sorta stuff. These are usually dependent on what culture/country/time period/religion these traditions were created in. Many magicians over the last 100 years or so though have figured out that it really doesn't matter which form of ritual you're performing (even if it's one you've completely made up yourself), as long as it gets you to a state of "gnosis" (in chaos magic, this is similar to zen kinda). Once there, you can perform your working. Whatever gets you there whether it's chanting to drumming to drugs to fucking, it's all up for grabs (seeing as all of these things have been used throughout time and seem to work pretty well)! The fun part about chaos magic in particular is that you can create your own rituals and see if they're effective. Want to connect with A love deity? Aphrodite or one of the care bears would work great! It's whatever works for you. A few google searches can probably explain a little better than me though. @Capricus I'm actually currently reading Condensed Chaos. Liber Null and Psychonaut by Peter Carroll are good too!Tuning in and dropping out, dancing Buddhas twist and shout! -
Guess what I was thinking about was creating a sub-community of would be magicians, all learning and experimenting with magic together, maybe getting tips from more experienced magus', and maybe even doing something like the Book Club but with books on magic. The reasons I thought this would be fun are 1.Im just really interested in chaos magic and think some group participation might help and 2. I think the Trussellverse could benefit from an army of digital chaos sorcerers. Who's in?!Post edited by SIOS at 2012-07-23 06:17:11Tuning in and dropping out, dancing Buddhas twist and shout!
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I've charged a few sigils, can't really speak to their efficacy as I didn't set really specific enough intent. really just an excuse to beat off (as if I need one)
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The only thing worth doing is that which I can do by will alone... everything else is just passing time. (*)
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wolfmanalpha said:
I've charged a few sigils, can't really speak to their efficacy as I didn't set really specific enough intent. really just an excuse to beat off (as if I need one)
Its all about intensity
Invoking, spells, sigils- all useless unless one really believes, with all of their (momentary) being.Enflame thyself with prayerThe mind must be exalted until it loses consciousness of self. The Magician must be carried forward blindly by a force which, though in him and of him, is by no means that which he in his normal state of consciousness calls I. Just as the poet, the lover, the artist, is carried out of himself in a creative frenzy, so must it be for the Magician.
It is impossible to lay down rules for the obtaining of this special stimulus. To one the mystery of the whole ceremony may appeal; another may be moved by the strangeness of the words, even by the fact that the "barbarous names" are unintelligible to him. Some times in the course of a ceremony the true meaning of some barbarous name that has hitherto baffled his analysis may flash upon him, luminous and splendid, so that he is caught up unto orgasm. The smell of a particular incense may excite him effectively, or perhaps the physical ecstasy of the magick dance.
Every Magician must compose his ceremony in such a manner as to produce a dramatic climax. At the moment when the excitement becomes ungovernable, when then the whole conscious being of the Magician undergoes a spiritual spasm, at that moment must he utter the supreme adjuration.
One very effective method is to stop short, by a supreme effort of will, again and again, on the very brink of that spasm, until a time arrives when the idea of exercising that will fails to occur
This forgetfulness must be complete; it is fatal to try to "let oneself go" consciously.Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
As an addendum to my last post, I'm not really sure what I think of the Chaos Magick movement just yet. Its not that I disagree with the philosophy, but that it seems to attract a lot of slackers that are drawn to it because it seems to say its ok to skip the work (development of one's power of focus by different training methods) and just jump right into magickal acts.
Without a strong focus and ability to direct the mind, magick is utterly useless (or it seems to me at least)Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
LucemPortabo said:
Without a strong focus and ability to direct the mind, magick is utterly useless (or it seems to me at least)
Joseph said:I've always liked reading about magick but never felt any desire to practice it.
My problem is I don't know what human beings do that is useful; and yeah practicing magic is tethered to your personal motivations, I don't have many. :)
Post edited by orgone at 2012-07-23 13:58:31 -
orgone said:
My problem is I don't know what human beings do that is useful
What I meant by useful was in terms of results, whether those results are subjective or not.
Magick doesn't deliver any results if you just draw a sigil on a piece of paper to see if it works- it requires a direction of the mind in a manner that exists outside of objectivity. Not to say you have to walk around literally believing in the various metaphysics of magickal ritual, but you definitely have to believe in it while in the act of performance.
Placebo effect.
Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
LucemPortabo said:
As an addendum to my last post, I'm not really sure what I think of the Chaos Magick movement just yet. Its not that I disagree with the philosophy, but that it seems to attract a lot of slackers that are drawn to it because it seems to say its ok to skip the work (development of one's power of focus by different training methods) and just jump right into magickal acts.
Without a strong focus and ability to direct the mind, magick is utterly useless (or it seems to me at least)
I have similar feelings. When I first started investigating magic, Chaos Magic was attractive because it seemed to cut out the wall of jargon and complexity that are around most occult systems, but I did not really start getting the results in my consciousness till I started working with a more ground-up approach.
I do think that there are a lot of benefits to Chaos Magic, but it requires a lot of development to make use of its tools. -
Capricus said:
I do think that there are a lot of benefits to Chaos Magic, but it requires a lot of development to make use of its tools.
Exactly. I can see Chaos Magic as being effective after you've spent a good deal of time studying and practicing other systems which Chaos Magic draws from.
You have to have a map to navigate the territory, although the map is not the territory itself.
Much of the complexity of occult material is certainly a bit intimidating and off-putting in the beginning, but that is part of the process- learning a new system/way of thought and taking the challenge.
The learning of a new language can introduce completely new ways of thinking. Its not so much about keeping a secret through mysterious symbols, as it is about a way of coming to realization of what the symbols represent.Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
Capricus said:LucemPortabo said:
As an addendum to my last post, I'm not really sure what I think of the Chaos Magick movement just yet. Its not that I disagree with the philosophy, but that it seems to attract a lot of slackers that are drawn to it because it seems to say its ok to skip the work (development of one's power of focus by different training methods) and just jump right into magickal acts.
Without a strong focus and ability to direct the mind, magick is utterly useless (or it seems to me at least)
I have similar feelings. When I first started investigating magic, Chaos Magic was attractive because it seemed to cut out the wall of jargon and complexity that are around most occult systems, but I did not really start getting the results in my consciousness till I started working with a more ground-up approach.
I do think that there are a lot of benefits to Chaos Magic, but it requires a lot of development to make use of its tools.
That is what I feel about it to a degree as well. I thought Liber Null (or whichever one it was) was great in that it had that initial foundations listing techniques to get into trance to do the stuff. Kind of like the Book 4 writings Crowley did in regards to yoga. As in control your body, breath mind etc. He just added in some other things people do to reach trance like states.
I never really got into the Sigil stuff though because I guess I don't get why I should personally. Great I can do some Sigil for whatever little thing? Not saying all users of the method do it, but a lot of it just seemed pointless and petty. I can fake it till I make it in other fashions to get a job or whatever else instead of writing a little doodle and "sending it out there".
But I really do love the general philosophy of using belief as a tool in general ways much like our patron Saint RAW (:P) would say. Although I don't do "magick" rituals technically speaking (I just kind of feel silly) I think it serves me well when exploring new avenues of thought whether it be Magick, or Drugs, or meditation or yoga or Gurdjeff or NLP or whatever combinations of any/all of them and other things.
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@Malaclypse it can certainly feel pretty silly at times performing ritual, and looks even sillier when seeing others do it
Many honest ceremonial magicians will admit to this. That's all part of learning to defeat your every day sense of reasonability though, which in itself is an eye opening practice
And it doesn't hurt to have something built into the system which makes you question what you're doingEvery one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
Derp.
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Post edited by LucemPortabo at 2012-07-23 15:10:52Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has.
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Magic is a series of franchises. k-os majik™ is starting your own business. I think statistically you break even on % chance of failure of starting a new business vs association fees as a franchisee. Some people just feel more comfortable with an established model.Post edited by orgone at 2012-07-25 13:06:08
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editedPost edited by JahRags at 2012-08-01 03:47:08
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mage_slayer420 said:
im in favor of a DTFH magical fraternity
I am very interested. I humbly suggest the name Fraternitatis Magicae DTFH, and hope it is to your liking. The constitution of the fraternity might need its own thread, seeing as this one seems to have been intended for a more general discussion. -
I've had mixed results with sigil magick.
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orgone said:
Magic is a series of franchises. k-os majik™ is starting your own business. I think statistically you break even on % chance of failure of starting a new business vs association fees as a franchisee. Some people just feel more comfortable with an established model.
And what about the fact that chaos magick is simply a hodge podge of these established models, and uses the same principles built from these previous systems? What if one applies the philosophy of chaos magick without subscribing to the label of chaos magician? Are they still an independent business man, or some kind of street hustler?
Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
LucemPortabo said:orgone said:
Magic is a series of franchises. k-os majik™ is starting your own business. I think statistically you break even on % chance of failure of starting a new business vs association fees as a franchisee. Some people just feel more comfortable with an established model.
And what about the fact that chaos magick is simply a hodge podge of these established models, and uses the same principles built from these previous systems? What if one applies the philosophy of chaos magick without subscribing to the label of chaos magician? Are they still an independent business man, or some kind of street hustler?
Exactly. That's the beauty of chaos magick. You can work with pre-existing models, create your own, or combine methods. There are no limits to hacking this reality and your mind. -
Right... and again, my main issue with many who take on the label of chaos magick is that they are themselves buying into what is now an established system also. There's plenty of books, texts and videos about how to perform chaos magick, many of which do not explain the philosophy these techniques are based upon. Perhaps this may work quite well for certain highly suggestible types, but method is empty without inducing a state of mind which correlates with the method.
You can't hack the mind unless you hack the mind.
You can however be a script kiddie that more often than not achieves very little.Post edited by LucemPortabo at 2012-08-01 12:19:29Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
LucemPortabo said:
And what about the fact that chaos magick is simply a hodge podge of these established models, and uses the same principles built from these previous systems?
And what about this fact? You have to tell me your personal values, I don't understand what you're trying to convey other than that you personally find this problematic. I don't understand how this is material to the discussion.
LucemPortabo said:What if one applies the philosophy of chaos magick without subscribing to the label of chaos magician? Are they still an independent business man, or some kind of street hustler?
A little of both, depending on intent. The established systems are just guys playing long-con vs short confidence scam operators. Unless you know somereal magic enlightened one. Some people just don't want to bother getting taking in with the cultural and karmic inertia of an existing system Tarot to Tai Chi.
You're talking to someone who has a VERY simple understanding of things, you do remember, maestro? Any answer I give must, by logic, be worthless information to someone of your degree of erudition.
QEDPost edited by orgone at 2012-08-01 22:29:17 -
I've been pretty half-assed about it, would love a community to practice with
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maybe we can even get on Skype and "charge some sigils" together if you know what I mean... ;)
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@Fuji_M0T0, you are very welcome to participate in the creation of the community you seek: Constitution of Fraternatis Magicae DTFH
Post edited by JahRags at 2012-08-02 09:10:10 -
Okey. As of now, my occult reading list consists of the following books:
Book Four - Crowley
Condensed Chaos - Phil Hine
The Chicken Qabalah - Lon Milo DuQuette
Psychonaut (1981), Liber Null (1978) Peter J. Carroll
Does that sound about right? -
Not adequate. Spend more money on questionable reading material.
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@orgone shame we've fallen into this level of communication. Apologies for any notions of attainment I may have given off via my comments, as I'm not claiming anything. I'm speaking of course from my own personal place of understanding, and although I often include "disclaimers" to this nature, I suppose perhaps I should just restrict my output of thought to pre-fingers only..
I welcome any challenging to what I am actually saying, by way of providing some kind of understanding as to a different way looking at it all, but simply saying "its all rubbish" seems like nonsense to me, unless you're also saying chaos magick itself is rubbish as well. If that is the case, then why bother at all?
I'm saying that chaos magick operates through the power of the mind, just like the rest of it, and that is basically all I've said. If something has power through the mind, then it only follows that it is beneficial to make the entire experience more intense through a vaster/more comprehensive understanding of the concepts it is based on. I'm sorry If I have implied otherwise.Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
@LucemPortabo
It seems you're challenging the "legitimacy" of chaos magic, you want me to challenge your challenge? Say chaos magic is rubbish, why not bother, why bother not bothering, a why bother to bother. You're questioning the virginity of a prostitute.
You are presuming to know the concepts based on a chaos magician's practice in abstract, meditate on that for a minute. You are presuming they're using some system that makes sense at all.
Some people like roads, other people like making roads. Stay on your road. The sum of your criticism seems to be "but this is not how I like to do things personally," and about that no one cares. No more than you care about the basis of someone chaos magical practice, or if it's consistent with ideas that make sense to you as an individual.
If you're looking for a one sentence summary or a theoretical kernel from which a myriad of consistent thoughts spring you are in the wrong thread sir. -
@orgone ah around we go..
I never challenged the legitimacy of CM- in fact, I said I agree with its philosophy in many aspects. All that I said was that I have observed certain characteristics in those I've personally encountered who claim to be practitioners of chaos magic(k).
All I've stated is my own personal experiences and issues with CM. I have not made an overall statement about what it is, isn't or always will be for everyone - only what I have seen it be more often than not (in my experience)Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
My apologies I didn't realize you were writing a biography making and ad hominem remarks about people not on the forum. I'll read more carefully next time.
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@orgone hahah... wow... point taken.
Although, I would point out that my series of posts developed out of reply to @wolfmanalpha's original comment- which I viewed as being directly related to what I've seen before with chaos magic and a common pitfall.Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
So here's a wildly imperfect analogy to illustrate my feeling/understanding of Western High Ritual Magic (Golden Dawn type stuff) vs Chaos Magic (Illuminates of Thanateros type stuff):
You want to make music. You don't really understand it, how it works, how to use the tools, what knowledge is required, but damnit you want to make some MUSIC.
At one end of polarity is a music conservatory; You pay exorbitant money for a fine instrument, you have instructors with years of experience, a specific tradition and way of working that you're taught. You may excel in this tradition, making music that is of a very high standard according to this specific way of working (western classical sound different from chinese classical, uses different instruments and notation, etc). The downside, sometimes, is that some (many?) students never learn how to operate outside the conventions they've learned. developing your own "voice" on an instrument can be hindered by learning in the voices of others if one isn't careful to truly understand an assimilate the info. Flexibility and creativity may be sacrificed for the
perceived reliability of established techniques. TL;DR you might get good at playing THAT style of music, but fail to develope your OWN style.
Theother end of the polarity os the self-taught punk rock style musician: You have fewer resources, so perhaps your instrument is shitty. You learn mostly by ear or anecdotally, probably with no real "teacher" other than trial and error and your own tastes. You are possibly more likely to develope your own idiosyncrasies and techniques, which may be effective for you, but may not be the MOST effective way to do A Thing. The lack of a grounded, tested tradition or "school" as a starting point can mean it takes one longer to learn effective techniques, if effective techniques are learned at all. Efficacy and completeness of technique/system may be sacrificed due to lack of knowledge/availability, or simply because the freeform style gets results that seems to satisfy. TL;DR You may get good at "your thing" and have no idea that "your thing" isn't terribly useful or effective.
Soooo...how much do you trust your research? :)
IMHO, which does seem to be shared by many other cranks and witch doctors, we all live in our own tiny universe created by our senses and the interpretation of their input. This CAN be manipulated at will though, and the effects on "objective reality" can be real and measurable. What those effects are is variable and highly subjective....LIKE THE REST OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE.
Joseph Campbell is the first dude I read that compared the psyche to a computer, saying that he felt religions were operating systems for the spiritual side of humans. Maybe you're a Mac. Maybe you're a Windows PC (for some reason). Maybe you run Linux. Maybe you dual-boot and run two OS's on one machine. IT CAN GET ZANY PEOPLE. "othing is true and everything is permitted", so sayeth some guy some time long ago in a cloud of smoke.
SO: Does Chaos Magick "work" better or worse than Western High Ritual Magick or Santeria or Voudon or whatever? Depends on how you format your hard drive.
/feelings
Facebook is the landline of the 21st Century.
queenwolf.bandcamp.com -
^ Loving this analogy.
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@Capricus, I never thanked you properly for introducing me to the Speech in the silence podcast. I just finished listening to all of the episodes back to back. Magnificent stuff.
Thank you. -
Occult of Personality - “Hands-On Chaos Magic” with Andrieh Vitimus
http://www.occultofpersonality.net/podcast-64-hands-on-chaos-magic-with-andrieh-vitimus/
http://media.blubrry.com/occultofpersonality/p/www.occultofpersonality.net/wp-content/uploads/OoP_Podcast64_AndriehVitimus_it.mp3Every one in America is crazily conscious of his own function and is proclaiming it aloud and is not conscious of any common purpose. Architecture reflects this fact. The sky scraper has hundreds of offices which are independent -- indifferent to each others' welfare. The building has no moral unity, as a cathedral has. -
I'm reading Liber Derpus at the moment.
In order to obtain this magickal text you must copy all of the words in this thread and run them through the following Google translations: English to German to Egyptian to Latin to Chinese back to English to French to Tagalog to English.
To make sigils simply cut whatever text you need from Liber Derpus, paste it into MS Word, select all and change the font to Wingdings.
To activate the sigil, print it out, cover the page with semen and then place in the microwave for three minutes.
It can smell kind of funny, but it's very powerful. Be careful! -
Chaos magick/ sigil magick is the form of magic that always in the end has gotten results for me. here's the last success story:
I had not smoked cannabis in a couple of years and I decided to try to see how fast/ or if i could at all manifest it in my life by making up my own chaos-sigil mantra.
The mantra that I made was " brach sjing" first word like the composer Bach and the second word sounds like sing but with a J
Repeated this mantra for a couple of days, then i forgot about it.
And as it happen, in weird and syncronous ways, it appeared, and I consider it still unfolding.
Post edited by abramelin at 2012-09-15 11:48:56www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCnQDUSO4I
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