Adam Kokesh on the JRE
  • I think Adam is a cool dude who's heart is in the right place I would love for system without need for authoritian control but when I hear these anarchy based ideas it just seems kind of naive; and as far as the big corrupt government that is all true but it seems a lot of the reason the government is so corrupt is there is so much money going to the politicians from the corporations and those at the top of the free market society so if we get rid of government and take out all regulation I'm pretty sure there would be as much if not more corruption and oppression. I definitely see the value and merit in his ideas but it just doesn't seem realistic and the most efficient way to run a society of this size.
  • For a guy who got me to yell "Dude you're crazy" at least ten times while listening to his JRE, the dude doesn't have that bad of a personality.

    His declaration of NPR being propaganda is utter bullshit though.
    "Say my name three times and I'll appear and hold your balls." --Duncan
  • Joseph said:

    For a guy who got me to yell "Dude you're crazy" at least ten times while listening to his JRE, the dude doesn't have that bad of a personality.

    His declaration of NPR being propaganda is utter bullshit though.



    I think I yelled one more time
  • I think there is one thing Adam is missing when he talks about his strategy to fixing our society/government situation.

    Our society is not ready for anarchy...or socialism...or capitalism...or whatever the fuck we call our system today. That is why we exploit people, take acts of violence, get corrupted, enact laws to protect ourselves, etc etc.

    It doesn't matter what system or set of ideals we put in place right now, because we aren't ready for them. For any of this shit to work, we have to all make the personal decision to stop acting like dbags.

    We need to start doing what is best for everyone instead of what is best for ourselves. When that happens, the system that Adam suggests will become a possible working solution.

    EDIT: At the same time I think it is really cool what Adam is doing and we need more people like him. And I think it would be cool if Rogan took a more active role in politics/activism, but like he said he shouldn't do things that don't make him happy.
    Post edited by letgoandflow at 2012-07-14 23:21:11
  • Fundamental changes in the way we think about ourselves and each other need to come about in society at large



    Alright lets all take mushrooms now!

    Haha, but seriously, this leads me to ask the question, how is this fundamental change going to happen?

    I don't think it will happen by implementing a new system of government/society. In my opinion, the only way I see this happening is through a collective psychedelic experience. Either every person on earth needs to take 4.5g of shrooms OR something super crazy needs to happen that changes the way we think (e.g. economic collapse, nuclear bs, environmental disaster, technological innovation).
  • Haha, but seriously, this leads me to ask the question, how is this fundamental change going to happen?



    It's happening now. Nothing needs to be "implemented". People are changing.
    I blow my load over the status quo.
  • Jared said:

    It's happening now. Nothing needs to be "implemented". People are changing.



    Yes, I completely looked over that option as well. This "fundamental change" is happening gradually and will reach a critical mass at some point and then there will be much more rapid social transformation.
  • Jared said:

    What I was thinking of is more of the practical aspect. A 6 year old is sure they want to run away from home. Their parent forces them not to. In reality that's no different than a jailer keeping an inmate in, but is it wrong? No, and I don't think any reasonable person would say otherwise.



    I generally agree, there is certainly a lot of contention around issues like this. The relationship between a child and parent is not a voluntary one like that of a husband and wife. The child obviously didn't ask to be brought into that household voluntarily. If a wife can no longer bear living with the husband, we generally accept that she can leave right?. A husband should treat his wife in such a way that she would not want to leave if he wants to sustain the relationship. In my opinion, and take it for what it's worth, the ethical responsibility is stacked on the parent, not the child, to make the best out of an otherwise involuntary relationship with reason and rationality, not violence. To put the scenario of the 6 year old running away from home into context, it would be good to know why the child would sooner risk almost certain death than continue living in the household in the first place. It must take a lot for a child to overcome the intrinsic fear of abandonment.

    Jared said:

    In some way the hypotheticals helped me see that the "Non-Agression Principle" isn't nearly the black and white ideal it is played up to be. So for that reason alone I think there is use to it.



    You might find this relevant.



    Jared said:

    Sure and I think you are correct. To me the term "rights" is like "god". If you asked 50 different people what it is or means you'd get 80 different answers so there it is of no help to use it.



    I agree. I started a thread on "spirituality" and had the same problem. I like to think more about actual, logical terms than the words that represent them symbolically. Is there something substantial to "rights"? Maybe, but that depends entirely on the term the word is referring to.
  • Kokesh sounds extremely naive and I think did a poor job articulating Libertarian ideals but I really like what he's up to and love his heart.


    How do you think it could've been better? I was guarded going in but I actually thought he did a good job given the venue. There's absolutely room for improvement, but I don't think he did poorly.
    Post edited by jimmybob at 2012-07-15 10:01:08
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • KHAN
    Owsla
    He seemed nervous and scattered, to be expected. Guaranteed Immortal Technique is going to lay it down right 7/25.

    Adam is the type of guy who was so asleep, that when he woke up, he gave up REST of his life to stay awake.
    Post edited by KHAN at 2012-07-15 10:16:11
  • KHAN said:



    Adam is the type of guy who was so asleep, that when he woke up, he gave up REST of his life to stay awake.


    this
  • Maybe Adam Kokesh should give back all of my tax dollars that my government paid him to be their murderous pawn for so many years. Dumb fuck.

    Iraq Veterans Against The War = Idiots Biting The Hand That Fed
  • Let me clarify- it is one thing to be against war and big government, it's another to campaign against these things as an ex parasite. We're supposed to think it's more impressive that you were duped in the first place?
  • This discussion is great but....

    WTF happened with fleshlight?



    Something tells me they'll talk about fleshlights pro bono anyway.
  • So... You can't protest against prostitution if you were once a prostitute?

    Can't protest against the government if you used to be a bureaucrat?

    ...lets... take the arguments on their merits perhaps.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • If you are currently profiting off of the system that you are protesting, no.
  • So if I'm a worker in the soviet union back in the day getting my free meal of bread, I have no right to want to be free?
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • The internet you are on right now is made possible by government investment, research and subsidies to put this technology in every corner of this great country. To think that a major corporation would bring broadband to rural towns without government intervention is naive. This is just one example of why Kokesh is misguided.
  • So if I'm a worker in the soviet union back in the day getting my free meal of bread, I have no right to want to be free?



    You're changing the argument. Kokesh voluntarily joined the armed forces and was paid / benefits to this day by government programs that benefit vets over civilians.

    edit: He also went back because he didn't feel like he was patted on the back with enough medals. Dude's a douche deluxe.
    Post edited by deadlights at 2012-07-15 12:50:27
  • I don't entirely agree with him. I don't entirely agree with statists. I don't entirely agree with anyone or anything because I don't really ever agree with myself, BUT even misguided, to say that someone on a basic human level shouldn't want to be free in ways they feel they are not and shouldn't want to help people that are in bondage or in pain because of their own sympathy and empathy, is neglecting their humanness, deadlights. Forget the government/no government argument.

    I don't care about that.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • No, he's not a douche deluxe, you just have a certain position that opposes him, so you dehumanize him to make yourself and your position feel stronger.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • I agree with a lot of Kokesh's ideas, but not most of them. I think the main idea I'm trying to express is frustration with hypocrisy among many libertarians. The most tragic part is the 'I got mine, fuck everyone else' mentality. Especially the people who have benefitted through aid, subsidies, etc.

    It's the 'get your government hands off my medicare' sign.

    It's the person who goes through college receiving PEL Grants, maybe even food stamps at times, and then works as a libertarian to dismantle public services for people like themselves. (I know a person like this)
  • No, he's not a douche deluxe, you just have a certain position that opposes him, so you dehumanize him to make yourself and your position feel stronger.



    He is a Douche Deluxe, in my opinion, I should have said. It can't be scientifically proven... Maybe it can, after the singularity.

    Yes it makes me feel really strong!
  • I've had many conversations with one of my friends, and what we essentially agreed upon is if government didn't have the element of institutional corruption and war (same thing I guess) involved in it, I would be all for it.

    I've sort of become tired of all of these pro-anti government arguments because I've gone through them so many times. There are only people doing things.

    Now that example you just gave, is pretty fucked up, and I can agree with that.

    The only thing I can't stand is the dismissal of ideas, which is why I got in a bit of a tizzy, but you're certainly right that you should live up to the values you keep.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • I think if you charted it all out, most everyone on here agrees on more than we don't.

    I'm just so fed up with this war all the time society that I can't support people that use military service as a supposed benefit to their campaign, either for or against war.

    Just be a human against war.
  • Don't say that to the man who killed someone and has it haunt him for the rest of his life. That is a person who has been victimized by society, persuaded or coerced (in the case of vietnam vets) to do something anti-human. He, above everyone else, has a right to attempt to stop anyone else from suffering through the existential pain that has been put upon him.

    We all just want the violence and death to stop, yes.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • I think if you charted it all out, most everyone on here agrees on more than we don't.

    I'm just so fed up with this war all the time society that I can't support people that use military service as a supposed benefit to their campaign, either for or against war.

    Just be a human against war.



    I agree with what you're saying in some respects. America is full of people who tend to rip on things of which they are benefitting.

    For example, I was driving around Wisconsin a few weeks ago (for work, not fun) and there were tons of signs up around corn fields and dairy pastures that supported "Scott Walker" and his limited government message. Now, that's all good and fine....but corn farmers ripping on a large gov't? Seriously?

    So, I sort of see what you're saying with Kokesh. Then again, I don't think an 18 year old kid who joins the army to only later come to the realization that they system is out of whack is really a hypocrit.
  • @lucemportabo nail on the head with your last comment.

    People change and it requires certain experiences to bring about that change. Adam's experience in the military played a big part in the views/opinions he is trying to spread, so of course he has to talk about it...and I'm glad he did. I always want to know how or why someone formed the beliefs they currently hold today. It tells us more about their intentions and the transformation they have gone through as an individual.

    So like @doctor_bob said, why don't we discuss the merits of his arguments? While Adam's story tells us about who he is, they shouldn't make a difference when determining the validity of his ideas.
  • ALL INFORMATION IS USED TO MANIPULATE PUBLIC OPINION,



    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

    I intuit that this may be a part of the information that led you to that opinion.
  • There havent been any real examples of anarchy working with large populations, dont mistake the understanding of what is wrong with this system as a claim of a perfect system to replace it, I think its just people being willing to face the challenge of not expecting someone else to take care of everything and what true responsibility is

    The current system is proven to fuck up the human machine, whether you are in power or a victim of those who are

    But its funny that my man Rogan is still happilly burning through dead dinosaur juice enjoying the sound and feeling of his car while at the same time approaching the age when medical care will become increasingly more necessary, and is almost completely dependent on that same dinosaur juice.....rogan made it clear - he is here to entertain and talk about whats on his mind, he is not a philosopher, but he is the man!!! (not THE man....)
  • Its highly unlikely that any history of anarchy working with large populations would exist. There's too many filters.
  • Anarchy is delusional. If you have one criminal the system is fucked.
  • dhizzo said:

    Anarchy is delusional. If you have one criminal the system is fucked.



    that sounds like the current system

    but i dont think anarchy is a system, its the lack of a system, its human beings working together, or not, the current system gives you no option for the 'or not'
  • I see a lot of claims about anarchy being this and that, without any clear definition or the slightest bit of evidence that the critics have much understanding into the subject.
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • Criminals are produced by the system they operate within.

    How can you say what kind of criminals would be produced in an anarchist society, and then how they would be dealt with?



    why would you need to?

    deal with problems as they arise the best you can - all agreeing on one way to resolve all issues forever seems to be a lot like government...and doesnt work well

  • image
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • What if a group of 12 well armed men start stealing your women and raping them.

    Deal with it? That group turns into 120,000 men. Deal with it?

    How do you deal when you have no system in place for communication, or defense, or decision making?

  • @dhizzo Who told you, or where did you read, that anarchists call for "no system in place for communication, or defense, or decision making"? There are different strands of anarchism and different people will come at it from different angles - but I've been studying and discussing this subject for a decent amount of time and I've never came across anything remotely close to the assumptions embedded in your questions.
    Post edited by jimmybob at 2012-07-16 13:25:05
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • Standard definition. Wiki

    Anarchy (from the ancient Greek ἀναρχία, anarchia, from ἀν an, "not" +‎ ἀρχός arkhos, "ruler", meaning "absence of a leader", "without rulers"), has more than one definition. In the United States, the term "anarchy" typically is used to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.[1][2] When used in this sense, anarchy may[3] or may not[4] be intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society. However, this usage is not the traditional sense of the word.
    Outside of the US, and by most individuals that self-identify as anarchists, it implies a system of governance, mostly theoretical at a nation state level although there are a few successful historical examples,[5] that goes to lengths to avoid the use of coercion, violence, force and authority, while still producing a productive and desirable society.[6]
    Post edited by dhizzo at 2012-07-16 13:28:31
  • @dhizzo No offense intended, but you may want to read up on the subject before engaging. Will be enlightening for you regardless if you agree or disagree, and it will be less of an energy sink for others in the discussion.

    This conversation reminds me of trying to talk with someone about pot or psychedelics who got their information on drugs from DARE.
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • @dhizzo Did you go copy that definition after you first posted "Standard Definition"? Because even that very cursory and generic passage you posted is out of line with your initial questions/criticisms.
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • jimmybob said:

    @dhizzo Did you go copy that definition after you first posted "Standard Definition"? Because even that very cursory and generic passage you posted is out of line with your initial questions/criticisms.



    @jimmybob yup, edited.

    Anarchy leaves no way to deal with reoccurring simple problems, like pollution. You can't make a law, correct? You can't make people obey that law under anarchism? So how does one deal with pollution, ask nicely?

  • Oh, so you're basing your ideas on a complex system involving many different forms on a standard definition from wiki. Suddenly things make a lot more sense



    @LucemPortabo If you would, please give the basic tenant of all anarchism?
  • We exist in a state of anarchy. Do you really think it's the people called government who are preventing mass chaos and fraud? Order and peace come about despite government not because of it.
    Post edited by Jared at 2012-07-16 13:47:40
    I blow my load over the status quo.
  • @dhizzo No; your questions don't compute. You're projecting false understanding into the subject and then constructing your criticism around it. For starters, I recommend reading the Anarchist FAQ by Bryan Caplan who is an anarchist, and economist at GMU. This FAQ doesn't represent every angle of anarchism, and some anarchists would take issue with it, but I think it's a very accessible primer. It's only a starter, and won't answer deep, complex questions - but you gotta start somewhere and this is a great jumping off point.

    http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • Jared said:

    We exist in a state of anarchy. Do you really think it's the people called government who are preventing mass chaos and fraud? Order and peace come about despite government not because of it.



    +1
  • orgoneorgone
    I'm a Troll. Don't Feed Me.
    bootoo82 said:

    There havent been any real examples of anarchy working with large populations



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

    Holy Jesus do you knuckleheads even attempt to use search engines before you start slapping your foreheads on the keyboard. Even the supporters of anarchism in this thread need to dust off their Chomsky books it seems. Anyone who even uses the word "anarchy" in a political conversation about anarchism may as well be talking about "Christianism" at a Bible reading.

    For any of you whose usual research habits extend beyond the definition of a concept in the first dictionary you google, there's a PORTAL on wikipedia for crying out loud.

    Three cheers for people prepared to debate the topic based on the information they've gleaned going to GOVERNMENT ACCREDITED schools... they certainly have an imperative to teach with full passion why they shouldn't exist.
    Post edited by orgone at 2012-07-16 14:03:10
    image
  • There was no history of a car ever existing before it was invented and began rumbling down roads everywhere...



    Yes that's right. That statement is correct.
  • Caplan's FAQ opener is worth reading:

    "Anarchism is defined by The American Heritage College Dictionary as "The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are unnecessary, oppressive, and undesirable and should be abolished." Anarchism is a negative; it holds that one thing, namely government, is bad and should be abolished. Aside from this defining tenet, it would be difficult to list any belief that all anarchists hold. Just as atheists might support or oppose any viewpoint consistent with the non-existence of God, anarchists might and indeed do hold the entire range of viewpoints consistent with the non-existence of the state.

    As might be expected, different groups of anarchists are constantly trying to define anarchists with different views out of existence, just as many Christians say that their sect is the only "true" Christianity and many socialists say that their socialism is the only "true" socialism."
    Post edited by jimmybob at 2012-07-16 13:56:27
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi

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