should i go to college or not?
  • CetraCetra
    completely re-edited this topic, had a freak out elsewhere in the multiverse about electronic devices. I am 21 and have been avoiding college in an effort to teach myself whatever i want to learn instead of investing time and money for something deemed "tangible" in the "real world"

    am i contributing to the problem by getting student loans and all the other types of financial goings on to pay for education?

    I've found pretty much everything i want to learn through the internet and have everything digitally saved but through this way i haven't been able to actually do anything in practice other than maybe music, and most everything else is spent either listening or learning about stuff, or watching TV shows that are well written and made creatively.

    I basically don't know how or where i should educate myself further because everything sounds so devastatingly fucked, which is where i freaked out originally and had to regain the structure of my thoughts
    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-06-07 18:14:20
  • See my previous posts on social hierarchy, the upcoming singularity, and morality.

    I see potential in an artificial omni-consciousness, hive-mind sort of thing... but I still see the same dilemma. A self-destructive, yet innovative species, expanding the scope of experience with a series of complex and often unforeseen social repercussions.

    We'll never be utopian. The subjectivity of experience allows for some to benefit (i.e. the West) and some to take on the repercussions (i.e. Middle East, industrial China, etc.). It isn't ignorance as much as it is selfishness, and frankly, merit.
    Post edited by Gubermensch at 2012-06-09 21:48:49
  • CetraCetra

    We'll never be utopian..

    I didn't mean to come off sounding like i want to save the world, i just want to do whatever part i have to play

    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-05-29 00:47:38
  • Just join the dark side. :p

    I don't know what to say. Life is brutal, man.

    I know I'm quite repetitive around here... But question why you feel right is right and wrong is wrong. Focus on how you came to your conclusion.
    Post edited by Gubermensch at 2012-05-28 00:11:09
  • CetraCetra

    Just join the dark side. :p

    too easy

    besides, being on teams doesn't really appeal to me
  • I'm proposing less of a team thing and more of an avoid existential angst by removing your illusory perception of moral consequences to your actions (i.e. Karma).

    But do what you gotta do homey.
    Post edited by Gubermensch at 2012-05-28 00:24:24
  • CetraCetra
    yea, that's a good way of putting it

    i suppose i'll try going for whatever it is i'm feeling pulled towards but disconnected from the existential angst. thanks for putting words on it, kind of makes it seem a bit more managable
    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-05-29 00:48:21
  • CetraCetra
    lol sorry, over-emotional late night change the world vibe

    still though is it just a general consensus that the world is fucked and that by "all good things come to an end" you mean to say we're nearing the end of our innovation/span as a species?
  • Merit? How do you figure @Gubermensch?

    Might be ego talking....
    I do think we'd be similar given similar circumstances.

    Nah. I'd say it's a safe bet: your lifetime will be the most transformative and innovative yet, with the greatest triumphs and social tragedies.
    Post edited by Gubermensch at 2012-05-28 10:48:33
  • CetraCetra

    Merit? How do you figure @Gubermensch?

    Might be ego talking....
    I do think we'd be similar given similar circumstances.

    i don't follow. what do you mean exactly?
  • sitarsitar
    Well, I suppose in this case I would suggest looking into some harm reduction / positivity increase.

    Since it isn't feasible for us all to go off the grid and live in some earth ship in new mexico or some permaculture farm in costa rica, what can we do to lower our foot print.

    as @gubermensch says, - removing your illusory perception of moral consequences to your actions (i.e. Karma).

    but at the same time be really conscious of the actual, measurable consequences of your actions, and consider how you can change your actions to create positive consequences.

    so, maybe you still use your computer and such. but maybe there is a volunteer organization that recycles and rebuilds computers and electronics for needy kids or something. maybe there are other things you can do to lower your footprint. bike more? eat local? grow food?

    i dunno, but maybe consider adding positivity on a local scale.
    Mr. Takahashi would like to see you all in his office now
  • My original claim was that merit - ability; potential for greatness - played a role in the disparity between the haves and the have-nots; or in the earlier context - those that reap the benefits of innovation/progress and those that face the repercussions (Pollution, slave labor, death, in the case of resisting the imperialistic acquisition of resources). This is true, but I think nurture plays a much larger role than nature.

    So our Western lifestyle isn't a product of inherent potential as much as it is a product of an exceptional environment, compounded.

    Guns, Germs and Steel (Forget the author, haven't read it :p) argues that the West as we know it is purely due to an environmental adaption, not a genetic advantage (His argument is much more detailed, but yeah..).

    I'm rambling... I find it hard to make a concise point on teh mobile while being distracted by family.
  • CetraCetra
    all good man, very interesting points. thanks for taking the time to write it out

    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-05-29 00:48:59
  • Find something you want to get good at, and get good at it. Sometimes that will require a degree. If you want to be a chemist, then a university will be pretty important. If you want to be an electrician, then just work for one and get your licence.
  • if you have no direction, school might seem like a good idea, but what is gonna push you if you are just killing time? Don't go to school without clear academic goals.
  • The problem with the world is that it is at an imbalance. You have countries with abundance like the US and third world countries that don't have the same advantages. The problem is, since the world is run through monetary system, there will always be people who have and have not. It is money and always will be money that is the great un-equalizer. Think about this, the people who have money will do almost whatever they can to perpetuate a certain lifestyle made attractive through tv and advertising. The problem is no one thinks of the blood, sweat, and tears that allow people to enjoy their lifestyle because tv and media has removed people from caring which is why you don't see any real shit going on in the corporate news. But the root of all the problems in our consciousness in this reality is greed made physical into the dollar. When people are able to recognize that the system is rigged from birth, things will change. However, change wont come from corrupt elected officials, politicians or corporations, it has to come from normal, everyday people like you and me. I know its possible because we are now starting to see it happen in other parts of the world.

    With school, education is given to people who have the money to attend the best schools. This is the old way of education which needs to be forgotten. Education should be something that is voluntary and free. Think about it. Is it not counter-productive to force people into schooling as opposed to being there when people decide they need to be educated? The same thing goes for making people pay for it because you limit the access to information and knowledge, that, in my mind, ultimately makes for dumber people over time, especially in this economy. Obviously children should be educated. In fact, children should be educated to college level by the time they're teenagers. I've always felt that schooling should be voluntary after 8th grade. You'll have the ones who want to be there. And then you'll eventually get the ones who don't. The key is for the schools to be there for the ones who decided to forgo school ans education for other pursuits. This way, you have an organic educational system that is not forced upon anyone, therefore less overcrowding, smaller class sizes, and ultimately, better education. Also I think you'll have more educated people in the end because people, at their core, crave knowledge... just as long as they aren't forced to learn. Im trying to get this idea to go viral in an effort to ease layoffs of teachers and to truly reform how people get educated and think of education as a whole.
    Post edited by Mr_Marijuana at 2012-05-29 17:33:48
  • JayDP
    I think you're waaay ahead of the curve putting this much thought into it. Most folks just go to college cause that's what their parents want them to do. They bump around having some fun, figuring out what they want to actually study/do in their past time and hopefully by their Junior Year they've figured it out in SOME capacity. You Graduate with a piece of paper that says a word and move on to the next stage of figuring shit out.

    I think you have a wonderful opportunity. I think you need to just figure out what you want to do and do it in whatever way is best. Maybe the best way to do it IS college (if you want to be an engineer or lawyer, say) but you have the luxury of attacking it in the most intelligent and efficient manner. You'll save a lot of money, make the connections you need to and be in a great position.

    Or not. Experience seems to be a HUGE factor in getting a job. So try to kick down some doors, get your foot in and while your at it you can arguably take that money you're not spending on college and invest it somewhere.
  • Look into the MIT free online courses thing. They are going to begin offering certificates of completion, which in terms of employment might be just as good as a degree. You'd go through all the same course work and be graded. The good news is the courses are free. The bad news is the text books are not.

    The revolution in higher education is happening now. You just have to know where to look.

    But yeah, basically 90% of degrees are worthless.
    photo lao-tzu-field1copysmall.jpg
  • Recent college graduate here.

    Here's what I did: Went to a major public university since that is what people do after high school. I did not have a thought of NOT going to college. After my first year I kind of 'dropped out' mentally from college since the passion fell away from what I was going to college to pursue.
    The next 4 years I changed my major 2-3 times and this led to alot of self-doubt. I kept judging myself against other students who were 'sure' about their life and their success in the future. THAT was a ride I am glad I got off of.
    So I finally graduated and since my degree of study had no potential in the real world, I asked myself "what do I really want to do?"
    Ever since I was a kid I wanted to be a sound engineer doing live/studio work. 6 months after graduation my grandpa called me and said he knew a guy in his neighborhood who did this sort of thing. Called the guy, got the job.

    So, unless you know what you want to study or pursue, then leave college for the other kids who think they know what they're doing. Find out what you want to do and START DOING IT. It's all about who you know. It really really is, so start asking around. For me, college was just a setback from allowing me to have free time in order to do what I wanted to do. I have $100,000 in tuition payments to prove that too.
  • You will always be better off with a college degree than without on this plain.
  • ladychef said:

    CBXweb said:

    You will always be better off with a college degree than without on this plain.

    Preposterous. I make a ton of money and I don't even have a middle school diploma. People beg me to work for them, and I set my terms and price. Don't believe the hype. If you're honest, good at something, and a hard worker, you'll have to beat off prospective employers with a stick, regardless of your degree or lack thereof, and regardless of the economy. A dumb lazy cunt with a PhD is pretty much the same as a dumb lazy cunt without one.

    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • Ladychef nailed it.

    It's almost a sure thing that if you do well in college you'll be able to better defend your opinions and observations in academia which does count for something. The benefits of a bachelors degree program is similar to high school where a set progression of classes will eventually give you the opportunity for your job. The problem is the major you choose limits the careers looking for your major. College is expensive as hell but it does at structure to your life.

    What do you mean by devastatingly fucked? Does your attention often lean towards a pessimistic world future?
  • Ladychef nailed it.

    It's almost a sure thing that if you do well in college you'll be able to better defend your opinions and observations in academia which does count for something. The benefits of a bachelors degree program is similar to high school where a set progression of classes will eventually give you the opportunity for your job. The problem is the major you choose limits the careers looking for your major. College is expensive as hell but it does at structure to your life.

    What do you mean by devastatingly fucked? Does your attention often lean towards a pessimistic world future?

    not often but sometimes. i meant to say it sounds that way coming from the media.
  • If you have no leads outside of college, such as a paid internship, or entry level dream job, then yes you are fucking yourself by dicking off instead of going into higher education for a degree. At least the degree will help you dick off more later in life.

    How about doing something yourself like starting a business or a craft, as opposed to lining up with hat in hand asking for a job or opportunity from someone else?
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there." Rumi
  • @Cetra I was in your same shoes. All through high school, I told myself I wasn't going to college. After working a series of shitty jobs for 4 years, I decided to go to a technical school for computer aided drafting. They lured me in with promises of great pay and lifetime career placement. Bullshit. I have a job, but I don't enjoy it even though I thought I would. I now have been paying on the loans for a little over two years, and haven't made a dent in the balance. Only thirteen more years of giving a chunk of my pay to those student loan assholes and it'll be paid off. The cost of education is just insane, there's no justification for it. If I had to go back and do it again, I would have taken classes at my community college, and learned a wide range of subjects for cheap, or apprenticed for a trade (I really wish I would have gotten into welding or construction).

    Bottom line, if you have something you are passionate about and schooling is required, and don't mind being indebted for a chunk of your life, i say go for it. But if you're not sure what you want, take your time and just be thankful you don't have a student loan debt hanging over your head.
    Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.
    -Carl Sagan
  • I'm not going to say yes or no. It depends on what you want to do. If having a degree would help, then go for it.

    You don't have to go that far into debt to go to college, if you're in-state going to a state college. I think my tuition was like $1,700 + books each trimester at the California State University I attended. If you're willing to work and study you won't find yourself with unmanageable debt. But it depends on whether you're going to live off college loans or use them as supplementary income.

    Make good use of internships if your college offers them. They are worth going into debt for when coupled with a degree in the same field.

    But if you're at the "just dicking around" part of your life, there's no reason not to just pay outright for college tuition and go part time (which is cheaper) while working. Maybe you'll give up, but you can consider it a loss rather than a debt. Maybe you'll find a field of study you're interested in and wish to pursue it. But take those fucking internships.

    Protip: consolidating (federal) student loans within several months after you graduate locks you in at the same interest rate. Afterward, they go up by .75%.
  • this is ultimately what i'd rather do than anything else, but i'm still learning. Techno seems like kind of a frivolous thing sometimes which is where i start thinking i should do something that would actually help the world like go to school for medicine or science or something

    basically i ask if i should go to college because i have everyone around me telling me i have to have some kind of stable future, while admittedly the music i make isn't all that good compared to the pros but it is what i've developed the most skill in compared to all my other interests

    i don't consider making music "dicking about" or "doing nothing with my time" but my friends and family sure do

    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-06-09 15:47:24
  • I always say if someone ELSE is paying for it, you'd be an IDIOT not to go. If you're taking out a loan yourself, it can be a tough call. If you go, commit, don't waste it away drinking like 60-70% of US college students do.

    Other than that, if you like making music pursue that no matter what you choose to do.
  • In my own pursuit of music, these are some individuals I've taken cues from -

    (...has a fucking p.h.d in physics)

    Bodhi Psycircle -
    ( in Engineering Geology and Geophysics)

    ill Gates -
    (...graphic design graduate)

    Don't confuse going to college with not being able to make good music, professionally.

  • ladychef said:

    There is a tension in any career trajectory between the ability to stay in the game long enough and with enough intensity to become an expert, and boredom. If you think you can stick with music for years, through some lean hard times, without becoming bored and disillusioned, you should go for it. If you don't think that's likely, you should probably find a tolerable steady profession and be a passionate amateur...and who knows, it could turn into the real thing anyway.

    As for "doing something more meaningful"- fuck that. There is nothing more important in this world than making art. Beauty is the way that The Good manifests itself in the universe. If you are making something beautiful, you are doing honor to the life you've been given.

    that's really cool to hear. the "do something more meaningful" thing always comes in when i start doubting myself after the feedback from everyone around me is "have a backup plan in case music doesn't work out for ya"

    which gets extremely disheartening after awhile to know people think you aren't doing anything worthwhile.

    thanks for the positive advice
  • To preface this post, to let you know where i'm coming from, i'll tell you a little about myself. I went to a local college and got my degree. I was working for clients during most of this and was able to get a lot of school credit for just showing some of my professors the projects I was working on. Combined with talent grants and student aid, I was getting paid about $1,500+ a semester to go to college by the second half of my time there. There was a point about 3 years in when I thought seriously about quitting but the free money actually kept me in. In retrospect, I don't think you need to go to college to be successful if you are driven to make something happen for yourself.

    One truth above all else is that it doesn't matter where you go to college, the internet is the most valuable learning tool in the universe and there are assholes who don't know what they're doing at the most prestigious institutions and community colleges alike.

    if you have the luxury of a supportive family that will let you live cheaply and you want to pursue a music career, then do it. But treat it like a real job. Wake up early and work til late at night. Try to find little jobs online that make money making beats or loops for commercial work, i'm sure its out there if you look for it. Make yourself a website selling your services and showcase a portfolio of examples of your work. If you're driven you can make anything work, but you have to be smart about it. Let your skill make you money before you put all your time into perfecting your craft. That will come with experience.

    If someone is paying for your school, then go to into a music or record engineering program. You'll get credit for working on your art and you'll actually learn a thing or two about technical recording stuff.

    If the only way to go is to take out big loans, don't do it. Its the trap that they want all of us to fall in. It's how they set up millions of little wage slaves from the start. It's the biggest conspiracy that nobody wants to talk about. With the proliferation of free education online you're going to see universities start to die off like flies. It will take a few generations to completely phase out though.
  • @deadlights thanks for taking the time to write that out. i'm not sure what i'm planning to do with school, i'm only asking the forum because it's constantly being suggested in place of doing something i want to do, mainly because A) it's a lofty goal and B) outside of my friends, generally most people i interact with have no clue what Techno [umbrella term] does for some people or what it means to them

    i mean yea even at times i'm like "what the fuck am i into?" but i also love being able to in theory make stuff other people will think is cool, even if i'm not all that great at it right now.
  • yeah what they said. Heres a tip: Whenever you tell yourself "I should be.." who or what is influencing that command? Is it pressure from your parents that you "should" be doing something "productive." Does society pressure you to think "I should become a doctor" because it's meaningful? Find the source of these "should"s and you'll better know what you WANT to do. Meditation helps.
  • Man, you people stop giving out bad advice.

    The internet will not replace schools, hippy manifestations don't replace hard work, and reasonable school loans are just part of the process.

    Dude, here's some tangible* resources-

  • Also production wise,

    *Hedflux uses simple Ableton automation
    *ill Gates loves samples
    *Bodhi rapes Surge VST

    uhhh people like skrillex are basically FM8

    And holy fuck, this guy knows his shit -

    Get your hands on his studio session - CM 177 May 2012 Komonazmuk Producer Masterclass
    Post edited by mentalfuck at 2012-06-09 23:26:54
  • OP: Just don't get yourself in 30000 college debt with nothing to show for it, like me.
    Love is what occurs when the universe recognizes itself for what it is.
    owlsa support waned RIP orgone
  • I dropped out of college after one year. Best year of my life socially. I'd never had so many friends. I felt like my whole 13 story dorm hall knew me. There was never a time when I didn't have someone to grab food with or spark a jay or play some COD with a nice cold 6 pack.

    The education left much to be desired though. I learned way more on my own and spent most of my days in the library and most of my nights getting shit-faced.

    I decided to drop out because the first year alone cost me 16 thousand dollars and I went into full on panic mode at the thought of starting out life 60 grand in the hole.

    That was 3 years ago.

    Dropping out lead to the biggest downward spiral of my life. I had to move away from all the amazing friends I'd made (4 hours drive away) and even worse all my friends from high school had become drug addicts or wannabee adults who think theyre mature because they work 40 hours a week on minimum wage and have their own apartment.

    I started popping mass pills, life became a lonely blur of drugs, video games, work, depression, and anxiety. I thought about killing myself more than a few times, but I had my girlfriend to hold on for. She was away at another school but I got to see her on the weekends.

    Anyway this downward spiral lasted for about a year. Then I finally manned up, quit the job I hated, reconnected with some old friends who weren't drug addicts or worker drones, and managed to find solace in researching world religions, studying film making, getting really deep into stand up comedy, and listening to the Joe Rogan Experience.

    Anyway, sorry to tell you my life story, but I just wanted you to know how horrible life might become if you choose to start school and quit. My problem was a lack of funding and a lack of direction.

    Know what you want to do before you go, know how you're going to pay for it, and know what the pay off will be.

    Also understand that the skilled labor market in America is very ripe at the moment. No one thinks of learning how to become a plumber, machinist, heating/cooling specialist anymore, and most of those professions feature great benefits, unions, and best of all, paid apprenticeships.

    I used to laugh at a buddy of mine who did his last few years of high school at a trade school for plumbing. Now the dude is making 40k/yr with full benefits and zero debt. Sure he pumps peoples shitters for a living, but after a hard days work motherfucker kicks back in his fucking condo without a care in the world.


    Go to college or don't. Trade school is a great option. If you don't want to do either of those, get a job at a Restaurant and try to climb the latter to manager or sous chef, otherwise you'll never break into the middle class. If you do go to college, see it through.


    the cetra were the ancient race of mystics from final fantasy vii right? Awesome game.
    Post edited by almussalix at 2012-06-10 02:03:08
    As Above, So Below
  • If you don't get yourself into an inescapable debt, then I think college is worth it.

    It's a great environment for learning and meeting a lot of really intelligent people. The internet is a great place to learn, but you can get in a cycle of just learning things and never applying them.

    People are a product of their environment and a good university setting is a great place to learn, explore, better yourself.
    Post edited by Brandon_Blanks at 2012-06-12 00:47:28
  • go to college. get laid. learn what you need to learn. disregard the rest.
    Post edited by mysterybuddha at 2012-06-12 07:39:06
  • "I didn't go to college, and check me out, I'm kickass"
    On a serious note though you can always try to get financial aid/grants for school and as long as you pass you don't have to pay some of them back. I'd suggest taking a term at a community college at some point just to try it out, the one I went to was like 2 grand a term for a full schedule, and after financial aid it cost me about 600 a term. Depending on where you live, income, and ethnicity you can actually earn money passing classes. My advice would be to not really think of a major and just take a couple electives and some general classes like math, and just spend that time considering if It's for you, and if it is then give some thought to what type of degree you're interested in.
    Post edited by DrRobb at 2012-06-12 09:21:17
  • thanks for all the advice everyone, on all sides of the spectrum. I think i'm going to sign up for school but i just want to go on record saying i fucking tried to blaze my own path without institutions i don't necessarily believe in

    *edit* nah i don't know, right now i'm leaning towards fuck that noise
    Post edited by Cetra at 2012-06-23 12:08:44
  • @deadlights Hey what did you do for work when you were in school? You said you worked with clients on projects. What did that entail?
  • kangkang
    Cetra said:

    *edit* nah i don't know, right now i'm leaning towards fuck that noise

    Cetra: if you're not on your way to college in the next 6 weeks...=> 0:33

    Remember that wherever your heart is, there you will find your treasure.
  • kangkang
    double post lag
    Post edited by kang at 2012-07-15 21:29:58
    Remember that wherever your heart is, there you will find your treasure.
  • Im literally 1 PE class away from graduation and Im delaying it simply because I have no idea what to do once college is over and the fasfa is due. Honestly, here is what I tell everyone, unless you know 100% what you will be doing and your field is that which requires a degree for instantaneous money and is in demand then dont go. Engineering and Heath Care IE Nursing, and Mathematics IE Accounting are basically it anymore. Openings in Education are out there but pay is shit and treatment is worse.
    "Michael Jordan plays ball, Charles Manson kills people, I talk."
  • In response to the original question: Yes, hell yes, by all means yes. At least give yourself a fighting chance to make some bank. Also, pick a major that will actually have a career attached to it that you could enjoy and continuously learn from.

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